choose by the gig or unlimited. and see how you could save $400 or more a year. xfinity mobile. it's a new kind of network designed to save you money. click, call, or visit an xfinity store today. that is our show for today. "am joy" will be back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next, my friend alex witt has the latest. happy cinco de mayo. >> we can be margaritas after the show. good day, i'm alex witt. 9:00 a. 12:00 p.m. in the east, 9:00 a.m. in the west. and what did trump know about the payment to stormy daniels befo months before the denial? >> did you know about the

$130,000 payment? >> bombshell details the lengths and expense attorney michael cohen went to protect the president. plus, back fire from rudy giuliani may have exposed the president to even more legal risks. in addressing the nra, president trumble touts protecting the second amendment and then doubles down on the protecting the schools. let's get right now to the new pictures getting them out of cleveland. the president arriving just a few minutes ago. he's going to spend the day campaigning ahead of tuesday's hotly contested primary elections there. but the president leaves behind in washington the fall jot over the alleged payment to stormy daniels. now two people familiar with the payment arrangement told "the new york times" that president trump knew about it months before he denied to reporters on air force one last month. although it was not immediately clear when exactly the president learned of the payment. we have several reporters in

place with all of the latest developments. nbc's geoff bennett in cleveland. kelly o'donnelo'donnell. and john harlan with perspective on this. let's go to you. we saw the president touch down. what do we expect to hear from him today? >> hey, there, alex, os tentens, the president will talk about the tax law. you'll remember, last month it was, when the president was at a similar tax round table in west virginia. he held up his prepared remarks called taxes boring and then went sort of full tilt into campaign mode talking about illegal immigration. and making unsubstantiated claims about voter fraud and that sort of thing. i will tell you, though, as i was on my way over here to talk with you, i stopped behind that

building where the president is going to speak. i sorment of surveyed the crowd. it appears to be, every indication this is middle of the road traditional chamber of commerce type republicans. maybe that will be one indication that the president will stick to the script. of course, we're keeping an ear out of whether or not the president says anything about the new reporting from "the new york times" that he was in fact aware of the six-figure hush payment money that his attorney michael cohen paid out to stormy daniels. it's not exactly clear when the president knew but the timing of course that he did know at the time he denied any knowledge of it to reporters aboard air force one. it's raising the stakes and questions about the white house's credibility, alex. >> it is indeed, geoff. thank you for that. let's bring in nbc's kelly o'donnell. kelly, another welcome to you on this saturday. looming over all of this is the white house defense of the daniels payment. what's the latest on that from inside the white house? >> reporter: well, i've been in

touch with the president's legal team today. and they are not responding to any of these new reports. and what we saw through "the wall street journal" and "the new york times" are important incremental pieces of information that add to what has become a complex picture about when did the president know about this arrangement. we've seen the denials. we saw the muddied up instance this week where rudy giuliani says the president was informed in recent days. the president saying we're not changing the story. and giuliani was mistaken. giuliani says he was speaking only of his knowledge, not the president's. so "the wall street journal" is giving us some insight into a potential mechanism that michael cohen may have used to bring in more funds. he had properties where he was able to access a home line of credit. an equity home line. many people have done this with their own homes if they have resources within the home. lining up additional available cash, if he were to ask for the

loans. so the unclear part. we don't know if he actually used this money. but he dramatically increased during the campaign year the amount available to him. up to a level of about $774,000. that is important, because cohen had offered at one point that a home equity line is the way that he had money available to pay stormy daniels without the president's knowledge or involvement. so that makes that of use. "the wall street journal" reports that based on their sourcing, those transactions of getting the additional access to loan money was something that federal investigators would at least want to look at. so that's "the wall street journal" report. t"the new york times" gives us different picture saying there was at least one top official at the top of the trump organization that was aware last year that the president was making monthly paymentsch about $35,000 to cohen, from a personal trust that holds the president's fortune. not the company's money, his own

money. and that reporting also says the president knew in advance of his denial on air force one in early april. so what this tells us, it gives us a bit of a mechanism that may have been available to make funds available to cohen. and it also gives us insight on sources telling "the new york times" that kwrp people in the president'sed me orbit and the president himself who were aware of this arrangement with stormy daniels. alex. >> kelly o'donnell at the white house. joining me now, rene graham, contributor for the bloboston g. and john harlan. g to see you both. john, the story of daniels' payment, there is so much confusion here, right? how does the public keep up with this? and does the confusion then turn to help the president? >> well, i don't think the confusion really matters one way or the other, alex. if you look at polling, long

before these revelations, americans had concluded, the majority of americans that trump was lying about not having the affair. and lying about not knowing about the hush money. what's happened now is that the trump team, both the white house and his outside legal advisers know that federal investigators have a better sense of what's going on because they raided michael cohen's office. and while those investigators know, we can't know for sure, but it's common sense, given the players in this situation and the changing stories, that they're kind of making it up as they go along. trying to both keep up with what investigators know. and say things that aren't too counterproductive publicly. hasn't worked very well. and i think that's with kelly reported that the legal team decided today that we're just not responding to what "the new york times" is report ing. >> i'm going to get to your article in a secretary, rene the

question, this week about the president knew about this payment to when did he know about this payment? why is that so significant because john's article that we're going to discuss talks about the fact that the public doesn't necessarily hold him accountable for everything he said. so, he denied it. why is this important? >> you know, i think there's a problem in that the narrative keeps changing. initially, you know, the president's idea was i don't know anything about this. you need to ask michael cohen. and it sort of feels every month, every week, every day, it keeps changing. it goes from i knew nothing about it, to, yes, i knew about it, to, yes, there were these payments. i do think the white house was probably blind sided by rudy giuliani's appearance on fox. and rudy giuliani having been out of public eye for a while so he went into this look at me i'm a sandra dee for a moment and kind of spilled all the tea.

this mess cleared up before rudy giuliani even said anything. >> i want to get to this. most voters have become numb to each new trump scandal because they don't believe what he says anyway. so, politically speaking, john, is this stormy scandal a wash? and by the way, what does this is a is about society if people just think, yeah, we get it, the president doesn't tell the truth. so what. >> well, a couple of things, first ever aof all, separate th that people's regard for trump's character and truthfulness from the story revelations. people have already decided, in fact, throughout his presidency, majorities have told pollsters they don't think trump is honest. so, that's hurt him. that's one of the reasons why his approval ratings are historically low even though the country is sat relative peace and the company is doing well. it's just a additional incremental revelations don't necessarily change that picture. he's already been pushed down by

this. and so, i think americans are looking at what's happening in their lives. they're trying to figure out is this economy getting better for me. have the republicans passed the tax cut, as geoff bennett was saying a while ago, republicans want to talk about the tax cut. so far, the american people is not indicating -- most people, that they're getting a lot of benefit out of that. so, i think people are focused on their own lives, and much less on the white house than you and i and renee are. but they're going to wait for concrete developments like what comes out of the mueller investigation before this actually shakes where people are right now. >> so, renee, msnbc's donny deutsch said he spoke of michael cohen, he identifies himself as a friend of michael cohen. this all happened after rudy giuliani media tour. >> i spoke with michael cohen yesterday, and he quoted that

giuliani doesn't always know what he's talking about. he said there are two people that know exactly what happened, miegs and t myself and the president. and you'll be hearing my side of the story and he was obviously very frustrated with what came out yesterday. >> how much does this complicate the white house's defense especially since cohen is going to be telling his side of the story? >> well, i think we're also seeing a familiar pattern here in undercutting rudy giuliani. saying he doesn't know what he's talking about, only the president and i know what happened. i think this is the situation, where it's constantly fluid and you don't know who to believe. or more correctly, you know who not to believe. because a thing is said and they pull back from it. and then they put out one scenario, and then they put out a different scenario. i just don't know how this white house continues to do. again, we're seeing a pattern. this is what they did with

michael cohen. and that's what michael cohen is trying to do with rudy giuliani which may mean that the clock is ticking on rudy giuliani as the president's attorney. >> yeah. i want to ask both of you this. renee, you can go first here. look at the poll numbers, okay? we've just updated them, they're now at 49%. how much does this help republicans' case in november, given everything we're talking about, all of the controversy, fabrications, accusations, legal constructs that are taking up so much time of the country's attention, this administration's attention? how is it that the numbers go up? how do you explain that, renee? >> i think it's what john mentioned, people look very much at their own lives and see what's happening with their lives. if they're happy with where they are, they're probably less focused on the scandals. it does say, however, that we've come to a point that people are willing to accept that their president is not honest. they can hear lies, they can hear deceptions and somehow it

doesn't move the needle at all. or in some cases the needle actually goes up. >> john, you wrote something in the article attributed to david winston. you said they knew the foibles. they elected him. at what point will americans gauge all of this and say this is working, or it is not? >> i think that happens this fall, alex, when people get very focused on the choices, that is, most people who are intending to vote in the midterms which is not a majority of americans. but they're going to take a look at arguments by the candidates and decide, is this republican government in washington helping me or not. the results so far are not encouraging for republicans. the question is, are they bad enough to flip control of the house and senate to the democrats? and that's what's still out there to be determined. if the president's really at 49%, as that reuters poll

showed, others don't show that. but if he is, that is a very good sign for congress because the votes for congress in midterm elections are highly correlated with how the people feel about the incumbent president of the united states. if donald trump is at 49%, democrats are not taking over the house and senate this fall. >> interesting right there. renee graham, john harwood, thank you both. we are have talked about the pr effect on this broadcast today. coming up, we're going to have questions about the legal impact of rudy giuliani's tv appearances. products, fisher investments avoids them. some advisers have hidden and layered fees. fisher investments never does. and while some advisers are happy to earn commissions from you whether you do well or not, fisher investments fees are structured so we do better when you do better.

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jay sekulow and rudy giuliani have both commented publicly on the north korean hostages. are they involved in their efforts for their release? >> not that i'm aware. >> why are they commenting? >> sarah huckabee sanders on why president trump's team would speak on the issue without an official announcement. let's bring in republican congressman francis rooney of florida. he's the vice chairman of the foreign affairs committee. it's good to see you again. thank you for joining me. right off the bat, how concerned

are you that rudy giuliani or anyone within the administration would specifically comment on the three americans detained in north korea before any formal announcement is made? >> well, i'm concerned about several things that mr. giuliani said the other day. particularly in the situation of hostage situations, it's better to be quiet in particular to what's going on behind the scenes. >> do you want to articulate the other things you had concerns about? >> i think you were just talking about some of them. >> okay. then we'll stay on this topic. okay. i'm curious of your understanding of how close we are to getting freedom for these three detained americans. >> i don't know. i haven't heard anything. we're out of session this week. i'll probably get some pretty good afternoon in monday afternoon, unless they get released sooner. one thing about it, the president's unique style has done more to get north korea to the table than the preceding

three add three administrations. now with john bolton in the loop, i think we may have an opportunity to solve this problem. >> well, it is true, the president's actions have brought things to the table. how things end is another matter. i'm curious to the signs that you need to see in the next few weeks that any deal with north korea is definitely heading in the right direction? >> yeah, i think they are, like i say, china engaged in more than the previous administrations managed to get them to do. north korea is seeming to make steps. i don't trust them one bit. that's why i say really clear thinking is necessary to making a really good deal. >> do you have any concerns, sir, that it will be a two steps forward or potentially one, two or three steps back? i mean, is that possible? >> of course, it is. that's what happened during the clinton, obama and bush administrations.

the guys made deals that he didn't keep. he's made deals that were in his favor. and we've been too quick to try to make a deal become you can't make a good deal if you want it more than the other person. >> what do eye think it is about this president, though, i mean, you're invoking your hopes in this. and you believe that this president at least so far has brought more north korea to the table and more in the likelihood of negotiating. what do you think it is about donald trump that would allow him to be successful where others were not? >> well, like i say, his personal style of communication has been very tough. i think he's been very year. i think john bolton has been very tough and clear. and that's gotten everybody's attention. >> okay. let's talk about some attention from comments that the president made at the nra convention yesterday in dallas in regards to the caravan of undocumented immigrants over this past weektd weekend. take a listen to that. >> we have the worst immigration

laws than anywhere in the world. we have laws that were written by people that truly could not love our country. >> i know, sir, a bit earlier this year, you proposed some legislation that would harden the asylum process to prevent abuses. but do you think the president is going too far with that comment? >> well, i don't think that our immigration system was prepared by people that don't love our country. the problem is our immigration system was written and put in place at a time when we had different threats facing us. and different characteristics of our workforce. and things like that. you know, we need workers in this country in a real bad way. but we also need to secure our borders and get the kind of people in here that are going to add value to our society. that's why i joined -- i co-sponsored the reyes act with tom cotton and the senate to turn to skill-based migration like they do in canada and australia. away from the family-centric migration we have now.

>> i want to quickly get to the midterms and hotly contested primary elections happening on tuesday. the president certainly is in cleveland right now. there's the west virginia one with republican candidate don blankenship out with a controversial ad. don blankenship. is that someone you'd welcome in congress? >> that guy's got a pretty bad safety record in his company. and i run a construction economy and i'm used to trying to work as safe as possible because it's dangerous business. i don't know why the people would elect that guy. >> so, is that safe to say, if he does get elected, you're going to have some trouble working with him? >> well, i'll work with anybody that's there. that's my job. my job is to represent the folks of william and carter county. i just wonder about that guy's records. >> congressman francis rooney florida.

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we're having a very

substantive talk with north korea. and a lot of things have already happened with respect to the hostages. and i think we're going to see very good things. as i said yesterday, stay tuned. i think you're going to be seeing very, very good things. and also, the trip is being scheduled. we now have a date. and we have a location. we'll be announcing it. >> president trump talking about north korea. also the three americans being held in that country and his plans to meet with kim jong-un in the coming weeks. joining me now former new mexico governor bill richardson. he's of course been involved in multiple negotiations with north koreans over the years to try to secure the release of americans. welcome to you, governor. and first of all, your thoughts, about what the president was saying there. his tone, the fact that he reveals a little, says stay tuned. but indicates that things are moving along.

is there anything wrong with that? >> well, this is his unique negotiating style. at least he's not tweeting insults, but it's okay. what he's saying that things have gone well. things have gone well. the north koreans have made some positive announcements on shutting down the nuclear facility. and i suspect, alex, having secured the release of the hostages that the hostage release of the three americans will come soon. i mean, the north koreans will control that. they drag these out, they drag these out, get good press and then they do it. the president doesn't determine when this happens. but, you know, this is his style. at least he's not saying anything right now on north korea that i would consider negative or badly disposed towards potential success at the summit. >> but, look, these kinds of talks are usually kept secret until after everything has been concluded. but let's look at what history has produce, which is not much.

so, might this be a winning strategy to just get out there and speak about it publicly? i mean, is that something that generally during negotiations you should not do? or that just really specific to the likes of north korea? >> well, with north korea, and there have been successes, i've gotten hostages out. >> yes, you've done that. i was talking bigger picture in terms of relations with the country. but, yes, you have been successful with that for sure. >> i always feel in negotiations that involve nuclear weapons, the safety of americans to do it quietly. to do it on the sideline. not to be so public. the north koreans are very sensitive. they want to save face. they want to be the ones that make the positive announcements. this has been their strategy. but i think that the good news is that more than anything, alex, the north koreans want a face-to-face talk with the

president of the united states. they've never had that before. now, that they have it, they are trotting out, i think, positive announcements. i think they will release these hostages. >> uh-huh. >> the president so far, his tweets, his statements have been good. not on our foreign policy and domestic. but here, i think he's staying on message. and that's good. and i think his secretary of state, going to north korea, quietly talking to kim jong-un i thought that was positive. >> what about the president saying withdrawing the u.s. troops, that's not on the table in the first meeting with kim, that eventually hopes to pull the troops out to save money. how do the north koreans interpret that? >> well, they probably know if there's going to be a negotiation -- one of the things that the north koreans are going to want is some kind of reduction of american troops, military exercises. i think it's a negotiating

strategy. we have 30,000 american troops in south korea. we're not going to withdraw them. but i think there may be some kind of a drawdown, some kind of compromise on military exercises. but this is what's very important, alex. we can't get too far away from the south koreans. and we're heading in different directions. the south koreans, they want to do step-by-step. north korea, you get rewarded, if you take a small step. the united states, the president has said, we want complete denuclearization before you get any benefits. so, you know, we're -- there's a lot of peachy keen stuff between us and the south koreans. and they're our allies, and we're close. but, you know, we're not exactly on the same page in dealing with north korea, and that's understandable. 25 million south koreans are vulnerable to a north korean attack, artillery attack, conventional weapons, missile. so, we've got to get our act together. and this is what i think is important.

a strategy. have the president give it to the secretary of state. diplomats should do this, not others. not others that just go totally offscript like kim. >> yeah, well, more of that strategy will probably be developed in that may 22nd meeting between the president and south korean president as the white house just announced. always good to see you, governor bill richardson. the links between stormy daniels and michael cohen and president trump go back longer than you might realize. our next guest is going to tell us just how far. k a whole lot m. k a whole lot m. that's why i switched to the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on everything i buy. everything. and that 2% cash back adds up to thousands of dollars each year... so i can keep growing my business in big leaps! what's in your wallet?

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welcome back, everyone. i'm alex witt here at msnbc headquarters in new york. new today, "the new york times" reporting the president knew about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels several months before publicly denying it. the time frame is under scrutiny now after the president's attorney rudy giuliani defended trump's reimbursement to michael cohen for that payout. >> it's not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. >> so, they funneled it through a law firm? >> funneled it through a law firm and the president repaid it. >> rudy started yesterday. he'll get his facts straight. he's a great guy. >> so then giuliani releasing a statement yesterday, my references to timing were not describing my understanding of the president's knowledge. but instead, my understanding of these matters." joining me now former law

professor at the university of memphis steven mullroy. welcome back to the broadcast. let's talk about the additional problems that these admissions by giuliani may have created for the president. blah do you see there? >> well, alex, a couple of things, the original giuliani statement from the day before yesterday before he walked it back good that statement you just read created a number of legal problems for president trump. first and foremost, he seemed to indicate there was some motivation about what would the effect on the election be if this came out weeks before the november 16th election. bolstering the argument that there is a connection to the see election and the payment to stormy daniels. obviously if that's the case, obviously, that's a campaign finance violation. and whether the money came from mr. cohen or president trump. no matter how you slice it, if it's campaign-related, trump was

required to report it either as a contribution from cohen or expenditure by himself. that's the most important admission right there. now, giuliani has since tried to walk that back. and i think they are thing that mr. giuliani said that was somewhat problematic that he suggested that mr. trump reimbursed mr. cohen over a series of payments over months, which i think indicates those payments at least continued into president trump's presidency. and if that's the case, then even if it wasn't connected to the campaign under government ethics disclosure rules he was required to have disclosed that as a continuing obligation which he also failed to do. >> steven, doesn't the fact giuliani goes on to say, look, this is done because the president is trying to protect this family, his wife, his children. all that. doesn't that allow some sort of legitimate cover for whatever comes up?

because it's hard to distinguish between the two? i mean the two could be concurrent thoughts at the same time, right? >> alex, that's exactly right. and it's a very messy question under the law. this issue of intent. was the intent to protect him for the election? was his intent to just protect him from his family or protect his family? or was it some combination of the two? i think the obligation would be on the prosecutors to prove, at least in significant part, a significant motivation of the payments was campaign related. and as long as they can prove that, then i think there's a campaign finance violation. but disentangling the two i think you're correct say murky collection of facts. >> it's a challenge for sure. we know "the washington post" has reported some of the president's advisers are worried that giuliani may now have waived his right to assert the conversation between himself and the president are private. can you weigh in on that? >> yes.

yes. so the attorney/client privilege is for the client to waive, not for the lawyer. but mr. giuliani at least in the original interview from a few days ago seems to be that he discussed the matter with the president and the president was okay with him discussing it on national tv. if that's the case, that bolsters the argument are attorney/client privilege has been waived. at least on the narrow topic of the stormy daniels payment. and if that's the case, the mueller investigators or the southern district court of new york or people involved in the civil litigation of mr. cohen might have the ability to interview giuliani about those very conversations. >> okay, steven mulroy, i know we'll see you again today. let's get insight into how the stormy daniels saga all began. joining me now, national reporter for "the washington

post." always good to talk to you about this topic. you certainly have delved into it in great detail. i want to go over some of the critical junctures in this alleged affair. first take us back, frances store, when it starts in 2006? >> 2006, this was a celebrity golf event in lake tahoe. trump was there. there was a photograph of trump and stormy daniels. so, we know they met there. there was also another adult actress jessica drake there who has made allegation against trump. we don't know because trump has denied what stormy daniels has asserted that they had a relationship. that they had sex that evening. at that event. but she told some other people, including another porn star lana evans who was there of that assignation. then we have a little bit of a gap. this is 2006. we go ahead to 2011. we've got a began of several years when stormy daniels apparently went to an old friend

randi spears. and randi had been married. and he went and had a long interview. we've spoken to the reporter who did that interview. the interview was crushed, apparently under pressure from michael cohen. it's the first evidence we have of michael cohen coming in. but it didn't entirely go away because later that year we're still in 2011, the story resurfaces in a gossip website called the dirty. it was crushed again by a cease and desist letter from the attorney then working stormy daniels, a man named keith davidson. who since did the more recent negotiating in 2016 with michael cohen. >> frances, can i ask you,

between 2006 and 2011, do we know the extent to which stormy daniels and the president of the united states were in contact? >> so, we don't believe that they ever continued that relationship. but she did say she visited him again at the beverly hills hotels. and there have been other women who alleged meetings with him at the beverly hills hotels. she said she dropped contact with him in 2009 or 2010 and was happened for a spot on "the apprentice" and didn't get it. and then running for a position with senate. she had political ambitions to take on a life of her own. >> why do you think stormy daniels felt a great need now to speak out against the president? >> well, i think we should go back to 2016 just quickly because she clearly wants to tell her story before the election. i think the big question is blah motivated that right before the election.

and what motivated the desire to keep her quiet, and this is one of the issues coming you now. was cohen motivated to keep her quiet pressure from the president either for political reasons or personal reasons. and when if that pressure did come, we don't know if it did, did it come before the election or after? >> but she took $130,000. what changed? >> $130,000. she was outed by the sense in "the wall street journal" in a january story. and then the "intouch" magazine, the publication in 2011 was actually published in january. so, her story in a sense was out there. it's interesting that she has said she wants to tell the truth and able to tell her story. and now says that agreement that she made, the $130,000 hush deal was in fact invalid. void so that she's not bound by it. >> right. because the president never signed it. >> you know what, frances, it's very good to get all of the

basics line up once again. >> go back and think again. >> absolutely. thank you very much, frances. in our next hour, we're going to have live pictures for you from cleveland. the president is talking taxes, midst terms and who knows what else. but we'll be watching for you. . or a c-anything-o. but i've got an idea sir. get domo. it'll connect us to everything that's going on in the company. get it for jean who's always cold. for the sales team, it and the warehouse crew. give us the data we need. in one place, anywhere we need it. help us do our jobs better. with domo we can run this place together. well that's that's your job i guess. ♪

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approaching 50 past live lo inside cleveland's public auditor crunch will the president is expected to deliver marks at a round table on tax reform within the hour. of course his appearance comes after the report that the president knew of the hush money came to stormy daniels months before he denied such a payment back in april. we'll take you to cleveland when the president gets started speaking. so right now it is the third day of the national rifle association's annual convention in dallas. we'll go to savannah sellers on the convention floor there in dallas for us. so it looks busy and pretty crowded there. tell us what it is like. >> reporter: alex, it is busy getting very crowded, it has been fill willing up throughout the morning. and this is massive. there are 15 acres of exhibit space, over 800 exhibiters.

and not only are weapons on view, you are not buying them, but looking at them to decide if you want to order them, things like the ar-15 that is controversial but also corsets for women to conceal and carry, hand bags that make it easier to conceal and carry. but we wanted to dig into the teen debate. and somebody on the other end of that spectrum. i met 19,-year-old sydney and i asked her what is it about the second amendment and what does it mean to you. take a listen. >> used to always be able to protect yourself and your surroundings surroundings. and if you can do that and you have the proper training, i think it is a good thing. >> right across the street and near proximity to where we are at right now are people your age

who are protesting this event itself. never mind guns. >> just having the nra. >> what would you say to them? >> i would say come out and learn. and after you come out and learn, take a class on gun safety. >> reporter: so that was sydney's big message, being able to listen to each other and learn from each other. i did ask her directly what she would think about the banning of assault rifles and she is against that, she says to her that is an attack on the second amendment. >> but at least send that you have to take a class on gun safety, so that is much appreciated. savannah sellers, thank you so much. so new questions about michael cohen and his work at president trump's personal attorney. the "wall street journal" reports cohen took out personal lines of credit to as much as $747,000 during the presidential race as he sought to fix problems for his boss public records show.

mr. cohen did not respond to a request for comments. but let's bring in mya harris and also michael steele. good to see you both. why would cohen take that approach for his client who boasts about his own wealth? >> well, that is the question of the day. i mean, when you look at the facts, of course this could be a coincidence and perfectly innocent behavior where you can legally take out an equity line on your house. but when you look at the timing of this coming as trump's fortunes are rising in the 2016 election on the heels of him winning the new hampshire primary days after he won the nevada caucus, it definitely raises questions about whether there was a link to his campaign. and questions about for example what did he use the money for, why did he need it. and are there other payoffs here. and depending on what he used the money for, it goes right back to potential questions

about campaign finance violations and depending on what he stated the use to be for on his bank loan application, it could raise questions of bank fraud. but an interesting thing that i saw in that story was that it was his wife who signed the loan documents and that is interesting because if there was anything untoward about how these funds were used and we will get to the bottom of that i'm sure very soon, that could potentially draw her into the investigation and potentially open her up to some kind of liability. and so with all the concern about whether or not michael cohen might flip, the fact that this could implicate his wife as well again we don't know, we have more to learn, i think that that is an interesting new piece of information as well. >> yeah. so michael, i want to talk about what she touched upon in terms of the reasons when you apply for a bank loan when it comes to something against the value of your home, an improvement loan, you are making improvements. that is usually what those loans

are about. so this report says that they are investigating whether he has committed bank fraud when he took out these lines of credit. election laws related to potential unrelated campaign contributions is a whole other issue. how damaging do you think this could add up to be for the president? >> michael cohen is not a lawyer in the traditional sense. he doesn't have a standard practice. he went to the worst law school in america. he is a fixer for the president. it is clear that having had to settle a decade old allegation with hush money shortly before the 2016 election, he either knew there were other situations that could require fixing or had to have the money to deal with those situations not just as a speculative matter, be ut he kn he had to pay for this right now without any fingerprints from the president at the time. that raises serious questions about both bank fraud and campaign violations and the administration is walking a very, very narrow line here of

cohen paid the hush money, he didn't tell the president, the president reimbursed him but may or may not have known at various times what he was reimbursing cohen for. this is a really, really narrow argument they are making trying to stay out of hot water with federal authorities on a range of areas. >> how plausible do you think that is that the president was paying not just the $130,000, but the sum total was over $400,000 to michael cohen. and did not know what he was paying for. >> i don't think it is plausible at a all. i don't think that most people believe that he did not know. i think the question is did he know during the election. because this could be an illegal coordinated and unreported campaign expenditure that would relate to donald trump. did he know it last year when he filed his federal financial

disclosure form and did not report it as a loan which it could be characterized as being a loan and especially given the fact that there were these incremental repayments being made. so there is a real question about what, you know, he knew and when he knew it. and that could have real consequences in terms of his e n liability and certainly there is potential liability for michael cohen as well. >> and given the headline from the "new york times," how difficult is it for republicans to take the president at his word at this point? >> i think the president is still adjusting to the fact that things that were accepted or okay when he was a reality tv star are simply not okay, not legal, as president of the united states as an elected official running a campaign and republicans, look, people knew this sordid scum any side of the president's background and character existed before the election. i think republicans are doing the best they can to ignore this issue and keep working on the economy, national security, and

the kind of things that the american people really care about and are going to be the key issues going into the midterms this fall. >> michael steele and my a harris, good to see you both. coming up, president trump live from cleveland ahead of the primary election. we're expecting to hear about tax reform, but we could get much more. keeping a close eye for you. heyr social security alerts. oh! just sign up online and we'll alert you if we find your social security number on any one of thousands of risky sites. that sounds super helpful. how much is it? well, if you have a discover card, it's free. no way! yes way! we just think it's important for you to be in the know. all right! hey... ewww! everything ok? being in the know is very good. yeah, it is. ooo don't shake! don't shake! ahhh! know if your social security number is found on risky sites. free from discover.

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